Page to Stage: Kel Haney, Outbound Fundraising Expert
How do you take the “ick” out of the ask? Kel shares her process leading outbound fundraising efforts for non-profit theatres.
Thank you for taking the time to listen to our chat with Kel Haney!
Podcast Episode Website: https://broadwaypodcastnetwork.com/page-to-stage/80-kel-haney-outbound-fundraising-expert/
Listen to Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/page-to-stage/id1463919339
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Brian: You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network.
[00:00:04] Brian: Hey everyone, welcome to Page to Stage.
[00:00:06] Mary: A conversation with theater makers.
[00:00:08] Brian: We're your hosts.
[00:00:09] Mary: That's Brian.
[00:00:10] Brian: And that's Mary.
[00:00:11] Mary: Join us as we focus the spotlight back on the theater maker to uncover their process.
[00:00:15] Brian: We speak with folks in the industry that often aren't heard from.
[00:00:18] Mary: Such as stage managers, producers, crew members, marketing professionals.
[00:00:22] Brian: And everything in between. We hope you enjoy this episode.
[00:00:30] Kel: Hi, my name is Kel Haney. I'm an outbound fundraising expert. I'm also a senior fundraising consultant at Donorly.
[00:00:38] Mary: Welcome. When Brian had messaged me about this interview, I was really excited because I felt like this really like threw me back to a couple years ago, really. It wasn't even that long ago. So I worked in development for a nonprofit theater, like 90 miles outside of, not even 90 miles outside of New York. I haven't thought about it, obviously, since I've, like, transitioned into marketing, which is ironic, because just before we started recording, we were talking about the connection between those two departments, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating, and now, like, on the producing side of things commercially, like, I, my brain is just constantly going, so I'm super excited to just, like, dive in with you on, on these topics.
[00:01:17] Kel: That's great.
[00:01:18] Brian: And the way that we were introduced was, one of my best friends, friend of the pod, Juliana Carr, actually works in one of your fundraising call center rooms at MCC. And I've actually, you know, heard a lot about what you guys do in the room and I'm like, that's just so interesting. I'm like, who's, who's leading these efforts. And so Juliana graciously made the introduction and so I'm really thrilled to be able to speak with you. She's, she's spoken very highly about like your creative passion for this type of work, which I think is, really exciting for both of us to be able to share with our listeners.
[00:01:52] Kel: That's awesome, Brian. Thank you. I really appreciate your curiosity, about what we're up to. So I'm psyched to dive in.
[00:02:00] Brian: Yeah, so, you know, I was going through your website a ton, which all of our listeners should, I actually want to read your methodology just straight from the website, just to give our listeners a little context. So this is in the words of Kel. After spending 20 years as a theater director, I've developed a fundraising methodology that's based on how I led a rehearsal room, focusing on what makes each of us unique and engaging.
[00:02:23] Brian: I empower artists, administrators, board members with the knowledge that they already possessed the most critical tools needed to be skilled fundraisers, empathy, candor, vulnerability, enthusiasm, and storytelling. So I'm so curious, how did you find yourself making the shift into fundraising for theaters?
[00:02:43] Kel: Sure. That's a great question. And, thank you for sharing my methodology. I think that's the first time I've ever had anyone read it back to me. I will take it and run Brian. So thank you.
[00:02:52] Brian: I just think it was so, so well. I mean, well written, of course, but it just, it, it tells so much about, you know, the care that you have or, and, and that I, I think we'll be able to get through our conversation with you.
[00:03:05] Brian: So that's what I'm interested in really diving into that, like that human aspect, because fundraising could happen anywhere. for anything, but I think there's something special and I think for, theater people, there's gotta be something a little more special for fundraising for something you love so passionately.
[00:03:21] Kel: Yeah. It's a great question. So the way I got into it is actually in my early twenties, I was, as you read, I was a theater director for 20 years and in my early twenties I needed some kind of, quote unquote, I would call at the time a survival job. So I happened to be interning at one of the major, not for profits in New York city and loving it.
[00:03:41] Kel: I was supposed to be there for a three month stint. And then I read all the plays happening in the next season. And I read this one play and I thought it should win the Pulitzer and it should move to Broadway. And I couldn't imagine going to New York, leaving New York, while this play was going on, and this dates me, but, it was Doubt
[00:03:56] Kel: it was John Patrick Shanley's Doubt, so it was hyper formative for me, in terms of my career as a director, and what I didn't realize I started to do was to build this career as a fundraiser, so I needed some sort of survival job to support my directing career. So I started to fundraise over the phone for this not for profit and I got really good, really fast, and it really was a great supplemental income as I was developing my directing career.
[00:04:22] Kel: So as I got to the point of being the associate on Broadway, I was able to, when I wasn't in rehearsal, to be fundraising over the phone. And it just was this marriage of some of my favorite things. I've always loved to connect with people. I've always loved to be on the phone. I've always loved to talk to people.
[00:04:39] Kel: And so I was just connecting with people over my favorite thing. Which was new plays. And so I got to just talk about that. And that led to bringing in a lot of income. I think I probably raised 7 million, something like that over 8 years myself, mostly in gifts of under 2500. and I was just really good and I really loved it.
[00:04:59] Kel: So I got burned out from doing that. So I started just really focusing on my directing career, but I had all of these colleagues in the industry who knew how skilled I was at this. So people started to come out of the woodwork who were now at different other organizations. And, I did a short, stint at New York theater workshop and that led to working at MCC theater.
[00:05:19] Kel: I thought I was going to be there for two months, setting up their fundraising room, which is where I know Juliana from Brian. And, that was over seven and a half years ago. So I thought before the pandemic, I had this accidental parallel career. So I thought I was going to be an artistic director and I was going to use all of these fundraising skills specifically towards being an artistic director.
[00:05:43] Kel: And I got really close. I got really close actually to being the artistic director of perseverance theater in Alaska, right before the pandemic started. So my husband and I had, who's an actor, Michael Grew we had some really big conversations about what our life would be like if, I went and we went together to Alaska for a few years. So this is all fall of 2019. And then the pandemic hit and obviously everybody's lives changed. And, was no longer in the rehearsal room, and I had the opportunity, with my colleague,at Donorly Sandra Davis, to work with Sandra with some of their clients. She was really smart about the pivot really quickly and said, you know, we have a bunch of research clients.
[00:06:21] Kel: And I think what you do in terms of this, what I now call outbound fundraising, but this fundraising predominantly through, phone calls and also through some personal emails. And sometimes every once in a while, a good old fashioned letter, believe it or not. She said, I feel like this is going to go on longer than anyone will expect.
[00:06:38] Kel: So I started to work for her and also keep working at MCC. So I found myself as a full time fundraising consultant, just kind of during the pandemic as a band aid, so to speak. but I ended up really loving it. And we could do a whole other podcast when I talk where I talk about, what it was about an artist being an artist and being a theater director that I started to feel like that wasn't feeling right to me anymore.
[00:07:01] Kel: And this was feeling really right. So I have started to build my own brand as this outbound fundraising consultant, having conversations with people about how to ask, like, honestly, at the beginning and end of the day, that's really what it comes down to. And I'm in early stages of writing a book that I'm tentatively titling, Taking the Ick Out of the Ask. So I love talking about all of this.
[00:07:23] Mary: There's so many parallels in my brain that are just running as you're talking right now. So I really love that you, one, you know, came as a director into this area, whether, you know, stumbling or on purpose and made that connection because when I came in to the nonprofit fundraising, I came in as an intern, but I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
[00:07:49] Mary: I knew that I wanted to work in the admin office, but I didn't know, like, what was the next step and so my grad school mentor basically was like, I really wish I worked in development because I think that is a really, that is a very specific skill set that you probably won't get anywhere else. And once you have it, it's invaluable, right?
[00:08:06] Mary: Like, sound advice is transferable in ways that you can't even imagine right now. But also, like, it's just It's just going to be really good for you. So I just took the leap and kind of just snowballed from there. But what's fascinating is that I found it really hard to grasp the concept of like making the ask.
[00:08:25] Mary: And I didn't come from, at one point I wanted to be a director, but I didn't really pursue that too much. And then I was not an actor, so I can't, I really truly came from like the admin management side of things. So I didn't have that creative mindset, I guess, that, that was kind of putting those pieces together of looking at these donors and prospective donors as just people and what I find exciting. I don't know if you have made this connection either of as a director, you're pitching also like you write you you're putting together like what the vision looks like for the show and then you're sharing it with so many different groups of people, and I, that's very similar to what people in development do.
[00:09:04] Mary: They're putting together this picture that they're painting for their prospective, investors and, and donors. And so I don't know if you've made that connection or if you found that kind of like parallel between the two.
[00:09:15] Kel: Yeah, I absolutely have, Mary. I think that, you know, for me, when I was a theater director, you know, I always thought about it was my job to be the connective tissue between. You know, the text itself, between the, between the aesthetic and then also between, and with text, I also say like text and the actors and also like the design components. And then the third point of the triangle I always thought of as the audience and that I got to exist in this ephemeral space in between.
[00:09:44] Kel: And so, yeah, as a director. One is always thinking, trying to watch it with a fresh eye and think about, okay, what is the audience getting? And you're always managing and creating expectation. So something I really love about fundraising, it's similar to what you're saying, I mean, the way I train people to fundraise is actually helping them build an arc of their conversation. So similar to a story arc and, there's room for tributaries, like there's room for, oh, who knew without, you know, I also Mary, we could do it right now. And we could talk about Pennsylvania. I'm from Westchester, Pennsylvania. Like, we could go down that rabbit hole. We wanted to, but if we were at a fundraising conversation, I would know what was my next tent pole and where, where I was headed next in terms of our conversation.
[00:10:27] Kel: So, you know, I really do think that it's all about relationship building, and I want to be really clear in terms of the kind of fundraising that I'm looking to create and the way I want to shift the world of philanthropy is to a place that's really about building community and I trust that if we're trying to one on one build community that we go ahead and from there, it, you know, the money follows. It doesn't have to be about the numerical amount. It doesn't have to be about the transaction transactional moment. It can be about building moment.
[00:10:56] Brian: Actually, just to piggyback off of that, I think, yeah, even if there is no transaction that's being had, just getting the name out there is some sort of marketing and maybe building some sort of collective base for a theater regardless.
[00:11:08] Brian: Just from a process standpoint, how do you normally get your clients and how do people, I know you said a lot of word of mouth, but once you do, once you are hired by a theater company to come in and help with their fundraising efforts, what are the strategies that you are, you know, are you coming up with the strategies for raising the money with them? Are you in budget conversations about how much is needed to be fundraised, you know, can you give us the back end of those?
[00:11:37] Kel: Yes to everything that you just said, Brian, I mean, to me, yes, figuring out numbers. I love playing with numbers and knowing what numbers are. And as a fundraising consultant, I mean, that's what we need, first and foremost, just to know again, what's the expectation of our client. And so, you know, knowing as much as we can about the financials of the last few seasons are super helpful and also going ahead and working to project what this next season can look like and how we can be helpful and, you know, really setting everybody up for success and in a way that's pragmatic as well.
[00:12:10] Kel: And I really, in terms of my specific more niche work in terms of working specifically with training fundraisers and setting up this outbound fundraising type circumstance, we do do it as you alluded to with Juliana, do it over zoom at this point. it was something that we started early and shut down and actually works really well.
[00:12:30] Kel: So I will sometimes have 5 or 6 different fundraising rooms happening within the day. got somebody else managing it. Either one of my amazing colleagues at Donorly or somebody who's internal, usually in the development department, sometimes in marketing or audience services, with, the particular not for profit.
[00:12:46] Kel: So I hop back and forth between all these rooms all day. but to your point,
[00:12:52] Brian: to paint that picture, because When Juliana first told me she was doing this, I didn't understand. I'm like, oh, you just get a list of names and numbers and you're calling them, right? And she's like, no, no, we're in it. We're in a room I'm like, what do you mean a room on the zoom? Can you just paint that picture for everybody?
[00:13:08] Kel: Absolutely. So, you know before the shutdown It was much more like this traditional idea of everybody being in the same physical room. So you'd hear this cacophony of, phone calls all happening at once. got a little tricky in that usually it was like taking over somebody else's desk, which obviously in the pandemic is weird and like not sanitary. And I don't think we're going back to that in that same way.
[00:13:34] Kel: So it just came out of immediately. We did have the MCC fundraising room up and running, as shutdown started. So we only took two weeks off, if you can believe it. We started making those phone calls very, very early. those phone first phone calls were very vulnerable and, kind of scary just as we all didn't know what was happening, but we wanted to reach out to our community. We wanted to reach out, to start with our very close circle of donors that were already associated with the organization. so I was just like, how can we do that? And what can we do? That's the closest proximate, you know, closest in proximity to what we had been doing before the pandemic, so we just all hopped on zoom.
[00:14:14] Kel: So there's a way to set it up so that, like, they're using their cell phones. They're using their cell phones with the number of the organization. There's different programs that do that work, but we can all listen to each other and obviously push mute if it's getting too crazy to hear everybody at once.
[00:14:31] Kel: But they learn from each other, like the fundraisers learn from each other. And I really do subscribe to the tide rising all ships. And so it's really great that they can all be there to support each other. And when things go really great, we can all celebrate together. And if somebody has a really challenging phone call.
[00:14:48] Kel: There's people right there to be able to talk about it. So we actually do have a community. We have this online community and particularly in the middle of shutdown, that was like the closest for some of these, you know, fundraisers I work with, like they might have lived at home. They might not have even seen anybody else. And so now it still works great. I've got people who are going on tour and they're still doing this for a couple of hours a day while they're on tour. Or they're, you know, working in with the rest of their schedule. And just the idea of asking people, we usually only do two to three hour shifts at a time, anything else, and it starts to get, pretty intensive in terms of like, it's a lot in terms of your emotional capacity.
[00:15:28] Kel: You know, it's like performing a show, you know, like just kind of having to be on for that long, that you can only sustain that for so long. So I love that for equitable reasons, people can do this work for a very short amount of time during the day and that it doesn't have to have travel time and that, you know, it can fit into everything else that's going on for them.
[00:15:47] Mary: Do you think that this method could work well for, like, sales? So, like, a sales, a sales office or a sales team for selling tickets, perhaps? Like, the face to face, do you think that that does the same thing if there's, like, an outbound call campaign? Or do you think it really works because it's, like, a more, it's a high touch, well, a higher touch situation with current donors?
[00:16:08] Kel: Great question. , if there's a connection between the person who's fundraising or who's selling with what they're, you know, what they're raising money for or what they're quote unquote selling, I think it could work, I can, it definitely can work for tickets.
[00:16:22] Kel: I mean, it could work for anything. I mean, a lot of the larger not for profits with which I work, while the focus is on potentially bringing people in as donors, if they're not in a financial place, or they're not interested in getting involved on that level, but then the next part of the conversation is at the end of the day, we just want you part of our community and we want you seeing the work and here's the work that's coming up.
[00:16:44] Kel: I mean, that's part of the conversation starts from a place of talking about the work. It doesn't start from a place of hopping right into a fundraising conversation. It starts from a place of like, what's our connection to each other? And what's the thing that we're both passionate about?
[00:16:58] Kel: And I like that. It almost feels like a chance encounter. You know, it's like that feeling of sitting, you know, before a show starts or at intermission and you start up a conversation with the person to your left or your right, or you're on the subway and somebody sees your playbill or you see somebody else's playbill and you end up in this random conversation.
[00:17:16] Kel: So I only hire. I really only hire individuals who are artists or who are art administrators. You know, we want to start from a place that there's already an authentic passion. About the work and if there's also working knowledge about the organization, even better if there's not like a lot of the training involves, reading all of the scripts and, you know, watching a lot of footage from things that have happened in the past and interviews with the creatives and, you know, really trying to understand the work and finding your own in.
[00:17:47] Kel: So, for instance, for actors, as if they were auditioning for these. You know, for a part in one of these plays of like, what's your particular in? What are you passionate about? So you can lead with that as part of the conversation. So we're not cold calling anybody. These are all people who already have a connection to the organization.
[00:18:04] Kel: They may not know that. Like, we might have to start from a place of saying. You came to see the show six months ago, probably don't even remember it. But if you do, we love that you were here and here's what it was about. And sometimes it's like, what was it called? What, what did I see again? And finding out like how to jog people's memories.
[00:18:22] Kel: but that starts a really great conversation in that way.
[00:18:25] Mary: Do you mind, I just didn't really, since we're on the topic of like the actual phone calls, I would love if we could try to break down what that, like, how you, if it's a script and how that script is either outlined or then how is it, like, discussed among the people that you're hiring. So if we could start there and maybe kind of deconstruct like how you go about building out. Is it a script? I guess we should start there. Sure. Is it a script that you're building out?
[00:18:50] Kel: It's not actually a script. I do have like some training deliverables now that I have official clients that feels a little more formalized and necessary.
[00:18:59] Kel: But when I first started training people how to do this, it was just me sitting in a room with whomever I was training and kind of walking them through how I do this. So I have, formalize this methodology as I have more formalized, you know, my role in all of this. so it's not a script, but it is this idea of kind of crafting out the arc of the call.
[00:19:17] Kel: So I, have other podcasts where I've gone really deep into it. So I'll try to keep it like very on the surface, but I have four tent poles. The first is the opening event. And that's just the first 15 seconds of the call or the most crucial. And I encourage like having being very clear right off the bat of who you are, where you're calling from, why you're calling and what's the connection that this audience member already has to the organization and then saying, I think you saw the show last spring. Just wanted to see what you thought of it and what brought you in in the 1st place. And then, that goes into the second temple, which is the main event and that's sharing what's going on at the organization right now or upcoming.
[00:19:56] Kel: So this is a great moment right now to say love that you came to see this musical. We produced last year. This year. We actually are going to start our season with a new musical. We just started, we just started yesterday rehearsals. I'm thinking specifically of MCC theater and only gold, which just started rehearsals yesterday, and there was lots of really great press that, you know, just today. and yesterday we started to use on the phone. So talking about the upcoming season, and then through that, another thing that is going on right now is that we are on a fundraiser. And so there's a way to just talk about the fundraiser and talk about the need to raise money as just another item that's happening at this organization. So without having to, you know, do some kind of hard pivot into now, here's the icky moment. We talk about fundraising. It's like, no, yes, we need to raise money in the same way that we can talk about. The fact that we've got Kate Nash and Andy Blankenbuehler at the theater right now.
[00:20:48] Kel: Like we can talk about all those things in the same conversation. So then the third tentpole is the actual ask. And so this is where to your point, Brian, about understanding the budget, understanding numbers. I'm really clear with these fundraising rooms, we have goals, we have goals for the year, which I break down to goals for particular months. August is traditionally a slower month. but so we have slightly lower goals for August. But here's our goal for the month. Here's our, how far away we are from the week and then kind of putting out our pitch. And so I always encourage, and again, we could talk, we could break this down further if you two want, we don't need to, but I'm really specific about the action.
[00:21:25] Kel: And this call to action is a specific numerical amount. And we're going to set that in a place that might feel, I like to use the phrase shoot for the moon. It might feel a little high if I'm always looking for, I do a lot of yoga in my own life. And so I'm looking for a good stretch versus a bad stretch, both for the person who's fundraising and also for the person that we're reaching out to.
[00:21:45] Kel: So what feels like a good stretch to them versus a bad stretch. And you don't know, unless you go ahead and shoot for the moon and make the ask and say, you know, is a 1, 500 gift over the year, which includes tickets, is that within the realm of possibility. And then you hear what I just did as hold for the silence.
[00:22:04] Kel: That's like the biggest goal. That's the biggest gift. The biggest like tip I can offer you is hold for the silence. so that's, that's the third tent pole. And then the fourth is, is, you know, the wrapping up. And so that is obviously if this person says yes to a gift, you're getting all of the pertinent information.
[00:22:21] Kel: But regardless, we're setting up the next contact point. So whether this person is donating 5, 000 to the theater who says, no way, I don't want to talk to you. I can't believe you're calling me. we're gonna set up like what's the next point of contact? Because the whole idea is that I want this moment of, this phone call to be really about building out this relationship as opposed to just being about the moment.
[00:22:44] Kel: So it's not like great. You said you do this. Thanks. Bye. It's like, I'm so glad you're doing this gift. We're so excited to have you at the theater. Here's what the next steps are. And only gold for instance, you know, starts October 2nd. So, you know, we'll, we'll reach back out closer to that date and set up date tickets for you or however that works.
[00:23:03] Brian: I think what's so interesting is that in today's world, so many people have so many tools to raise money now, like you have online fundraisers. There's, you know, so many campaigns that people have to, you know, crowdfund. There's phone banking. What, do you only employ the phone banking tank technique in your work?
[00:23:24] Kel: Great question, and I'd love to talk about that a little bit more, like why I think it particularly works for theater. I can get into that too. But to first answer your question, yes, it's predominantly over the phone. There's also emails. if we don't have somebody's phone number, we will reach out and write them a personalized email.
[00:23:43] Kel: And so this is like, yes, there's particular text in particular messaging, but the idea is that this should feel a little different than the mass emails that they're getting from the theater. Obviously, it's coming specifically from the outbound fundraising campaign. So it's a different email address, but also it's a more personalized message of, you know, reaching out to you because saw that you sell space dogs with us, and we didn't have a phone number for you, but we're really excited about Only Gold and we'd love for you to come in and see it. And, it's more specific than that, but the reason this is going to sound really wild. And if you'd asked me when I started doing this almost 20 years ago, if we would still be using the phone to fundraise 20 years from now, I would have said no way.
[00:24:26] Kel: I really did not predict we'd still be here, but here's where why it works. You ready? So it works. I really believe because these calls are intimate, they're immediate, which is just like theater and also just like theater. It's slightly inconvenient and maybe even seen as a little archaic, you know, that idea of sitting in a theater, turning off your cell phone, sitting around strangers, particularly, in whatever stage we are of this pandemic right now, so it's, it's really, it's really fascinating that, that it still works. but people really do want to connect one on one, and voicemails, believe it or not, people do listen to their voicemails. And if the voicemails have a very specific directive, people respond. They either call us back or they get on the internet and they take, and they sign up, they donate on their own.
[00:25:20] Mary: My experience with, like, an annual fund campaign, let's say, right, so is, I mean, the theater that I worked at primarily relied on the letters and mailing out, like, a mailing campaign and have, you know, we would, we would segment, segmented where, you know, partial, you know, a percentage of whatever would be you know, done through like a system where it's more automatic and that maybe the lower level donors are people who have only donated once and it may have been like over a couple of years ago.
[00:25:48] Mary: And then obviously the people who are more, heavily integrated with the community or the organization would get more of like a personalized letter, but it was still really grounded in letters. And at the time it was because, oh, that's what this community is, is used to, that's what the, this, like, this actual, like, community of people who live around this theater, that's what, that's what they do on a daily basis still, they're still like, you know, sending snail mail, so I'm wondering, is there an argument to be made for knowing the audience, and is there an audience that would still be, that might not work for phones, or do you really believe that, like, you kind of have to, like, steer them in the direction a little bit to see, like, what really does work
[00:26:34] Kel: Such a good question. I really and it's funny, I was in a conversation with a colleague at Donorly earlier today, who's younger than me, who's, you know, in her mid 20s, who really is having some resistance to making these calls. in her case, it's about thank you calls, and saying, I don't think everybody wants to get these calls.
[00:26:52] Kel: And what I say is I don't think it's about whether somebody thinks they want this. It's about if they get a phone call from someone who is enthusiastic, who's charming, who's really knowledgeable, who's passionate, we all want to connect in that way. And we all want to connect in that way with people who have similar interests that we have.
[00:27:15] Kel: I can't tell you how many times over the phone we hear, I never take quote unquote calls like this. I never talked to anybody on the phone for this long. And it's like, well, that's because the people, that I work with are really, really good at this. And they're really, really good because they're very smart, artistic, entrepreneurial minded humans who genuinely want to connect.
[00:27:36] Kel: And that is about all of those qualities, Brian, that you read earlier about candor and, curiosity and creativity and vulnerability and having the, you know, ability to storytell, like that's all part of what makes this work work so well. So I really think Mary, if, if anybody who loves theater, gets a call from someone who has been really well trained, who really genuinely loves what they do, the conversation is there. And I think that goes across demographics. I mean, obviously it's harder to get people. Who are, you know, millennials and younger to pick up the phone. I mean, the contact rate is lower, but it's really successful when we do get them on the phone. And also to your point about the letter campaign. I find that this what I call outbound fundraising works best when it really works in cadence with the rest of the communication, at the organization. So I'm not saying that this is in place of, you know, end of the letter appeal, end of the year, part of the end of the year appeal. I don't, I'm not saying that this is taking the place of that, but this works in tandem with that.
[00:28:39] Kel: So if we know that 1st week in December, that letter campaign is going to hit, we could start those phone calls a week later and start from a place of, I know you just got a letter in the mail. About our year end campaign, we're actually 20, 000 away from our goal, so we'd love to talk to you. But also, first and foremost, how's the season going?
[00:28:58] Kel: I see that you had to switch your tickets for the last show. Did that work okay? I let you get the gold star. You've seen all 3 shows we've done so far. Which was your favorite? I really liked this particular show personally, you know, so it can all work together.
[00:29:24] Brian: So, I want to ask the methodology that you use and the way that you approach these conversations. Do you have any piece of advice for just anybody in the theater industry or in any industry about making these big asks in their life for things that will help them advance their career or help them in any other way?
[00:29:46] Brian: Get what they need.
[00:29:48] Kel: A hundred percent. I love that question. I always love thinking about networking. I love personal development. I think that's all a larger part of what I do. and what I will continue to build as I continue to forge ahead with this new career path for myself. So yeah, I think that it's really about leading with vulnerability. And that's really hard. And knowing that fine line about like, this is not about asking someone else to take on our own vulnerability or to fix that, but to really lead from a place of I'm passionate about whatever that is. So, whether that's somebody who's, you know, talking to a potential new agent, you know, it's like, we always want to do our homework.
[00:30:29] Kel: We want to be specific about what our ask is, and really go into any conversation knowing what that ask is. The other homework I really suggest that we do is that other person getting to know them, as human beings, for me, my favorite networking book is Keith Ferrazzi's Never Eat Alone. Title's a little harsh. Don't have to go that far. Totally feel free to eat meals by yourself. But, I really like that networking book because it's about, connecting with people as human beings, first and foremost, and also not looking for any kind of quid pro quo of, yeah, I'm going to ask this of someone and then they're going to offer something back, like, how to always lead with generosity and to know that we all have something to give to everyone with whom we're speaking.
[00:31:12] Kel: So that idea of what can I offer to this individual and also how can I be specific about what I'm asking from them and they don't owe you anything, they none of these people whether it's a phone call or whether that's talking to an agent or that's you know when I was a director, you know having very intimate very vulnerable conversations with playwrights with producers all the time with actors with designers, you know It's like just trying to truly be an active listener in every moment and really trying to get to know this person as a human being and be like, I'm just building relationships in a larger sense.
[00:31:48] Kel: So if this particular opportunity works out amazing, but hopefully life is long and hopefully careers are long. And it's about so much more than what happens in this particular moment, this particular fundraising call, this particular coffee date. It's so much bigger than that.
[00:32:03] Brian: I want to call back to so before we were speaking, I guess before we were recording, you mentioned that you're interested and fascinated at like the intersection of what you do and the marketing press aspect of theater. So if you wouldn't mind expanding on that and if you've, you know, what kind of juices have been flowing when it comes to those, those thoughts.
[00:32:27] Kel: So I actually think that this outbound what, you know, just talking really specifically about nonprofit theater for a moment. I think that this outbound fundraising works best when there is some real communication between the development department, the marketing department, and the audience services departments around these communications. Okay. And so part of that is because I like to offer like, I think I already said this, but I'd like to offer, you know, yes, what I do is focused on fundraising, but it's truly focused even larger on community building.
[00:33:02] Kel: So if we're making a fundraising ask where I seen if this single ticket buyer is interested in becoming a 1500 dollar patron. Obviously, that's not for everybody, but since we start the conversation by starting talking about the work and the work that's coming up, I get really excited about the idea of keeping these people at the theater and ultimately end at the end of the day. We just I just want them here I just want them part of the community and again that good stretch I want them to stretch a little bit but not too much that that like then feels uncomfortable to them or like sours the relationship at all I want this to really be that not only are they donating but they're there at the shows and if they can't donate, no sweat.
[00:33:44] Kel: Go ahead and come on board and come see the shows and really explaining why having somebody, you know, committed to a subscription again, something that feels a little antiquated and our 2022 lives. But that really is terms of the bottom line for the theater so crucial. And I really do feel like when an audience member is with a theater for the season as a subscriber, it's like going to an art museum, right?
[00:34:07] Kel: It's like there's that one exhibit that gets you in the door. Right, there's, you know, an artist that, you know, you like, and you think you'll like, and then you're surprised that you like something that you didn't even know existed. Maybe that exhibit you came in for was actually your least favorite thing, and you have this other beautiful surprise.
[00:34:24] Kel: So I think if we really continue to encourage, audience members to sign up for a season, again, I get it. It's like antiquated to say these things. I feel a little funny saying it out loud. But I do feel that it sets them up to like truly have a deeper investment with the organization and also to see, see theater and be inspired by theater that they may not have gone to see or bought a single ticket to otherwise. So that's the marketing section. Like that's the marketing, getting into the marketing. We can continue there. Go for it, Mary.
[00:34:56] Mary: You've said like the, it feels a little strange to keep pushing like a subscription package, but I actually think. So pre pandemic, yes, I would have thought we're coming out of this age of subscription tickets and packages for theaters.
[00:35:08] Mary: But I mean, we saw such a surge of people, all different companies, not even just theater companies, selling subscription packages where you would buy, you would get a box in the mail. Like, I have one for my dogs that comes in every month, right? So I feel like the pandemic kind of like helped reignite that idea of like subscriptions.
[00:35:29] Mary: And yeah, I, maybe people don't necessarily make the connection of like a, of a box of treats and toys for your dog to, you know, a season of tickets to see a show. They, I don't know if they'll put the pieces together, but I don't know, I'd be curious to see like how the next couple of years subscription packages with theaters in New York and even in regional theaters, how that works for people and if they're really continuing to see this like exit if you will of subscription tickets and an increase in single tickets. I don't know.
[00:36:00] Kel: I think that if there are individuals who are having individual conversations, it can really continue. Do you know what I mean? But it, and I'll be honest, like it's not the cheapest option. It's definitely expensive. I mean, I only agree to do this work if these outbound fundraisers, these artists, these part time employees of an organization are being commissioned or bonus for their work. I really believe in the equitability of the work and how challenging this work is and that people should be compensated fairly for what, for the work that they're doing, they're developing a very specialized skill that almost no one else can do, but almost no one else wants to do.
[00:36:40] Kel: That's also very valuable and important to the organization. So it's most frequent for the return on investment to be well over 200 percent in terms of the investment from the organization, for doing this work, but it is much more expensive than a letter mail. It's much more expensive, obviously, than social media, but it really, I have seen that the return on investment is very, very strong.
[00:37:06] Kel: So that being said, Mary, I love, your analogy of you know, the subscriptions in the mail and I had never made that connection myself before. So you've totally blown my mind in an amazing way with that thought. I love it. And I do think they're connected because I think it's about, again, I feel a little weird saying this, but I think it's about brand loyalty, but like developing a brand loyalty and how can theaters, I think it's to continue to develop brand loyalty, and that also goes with convenience, like there's something fun for you about getting that box and not knowing exactly what it is in the mail for your dogs every month, but you know, it's coming and like, you've already made the financial commitment.
[00:37:47] Kel: You've already decided it's happening and you don't know exactly what's going to be in there, but you trust this company. So you're going to see where it takes you. You're going to see what that journey is of you opening that box and going on that journey, similar to showing up at the theater and be like, I don't know exactly what this is, but I really love this theater company.
[00:38:04] Kel: And yeah, sometimes the boxes are a little more, not your cup of tea as like a theater, you know, a piece isn't necessarily totally up your alley, but it's like. Fun to see what happens. And it really is about brand loyalty, I think.
[00:38:16] Mary: Yeah. And I think you go one step further from a marketing perspective. So now like my marketing brain sparking right now.
[00:38:22] Mary: So I think what is actually gives theater a leg up in, you know, comparing to like dog box analogy is that your audience has to go to your place, right? So they're walking into your surrounding and where they will be, I mean, I hate to use this word, but they will be touched many different times, right?
[00:38:42] Mary: So you go to like the bar, you go to the merch stand, you go to customer service, if you have a question, you go to a coat rack. If there's a restaurant nearby or even attached to a theater, they're spending time in that place. So not only are they in your environment, where they're more likely to get even a deeper connection to the establishment, to the people, to the community, they're also, you know, best case scenario is that there's the artistic director, the director of development, the director of education, someone up there who is mingling, who is talking to these people who, and not even director level. Honestly, it could be anyone in the industry, anyone in the organization just talking to them.
[00:39:22] Mary: And that like, really helps your case even more when you do get on the phone with them later down the line. And cause something that I wrote as you were talking about, you were saying,outbound calls don't necessarily replace end of year mail campaigns. I think that it's so similar to a marketing strategy of, like the, the multiple touch points.
[00:39:40] Mary: So you want to hit them multiple different times in multiple different ways. So it doesn't just take one email that sells them on something. It won't take one phone call. It's accompanied by like. bunch of different things, being at the theater, experiencing all of those senses is one of them as well.
[00:39:55] Mary: So I just, Oh, my.
[00:39:56] Kel: Yep. I agree. It's just sparking. Yes. You're speaking my language in all of the ways, Mary. And yeah, it's just another one of those touch points. And frequently, sometimes these calls are the only other than, you know, going to the merch or going to the box office or, you know, this is, this is the most in depth conversation they have from anybody at the theater and so it's really important to me that all of those individuals are really knowledgeable and really passionate and really warm and really welcoming always like that's truly what we're always leading with.
[00:40:30] Kel: I mean, it's like the antithesis and I don't know if you to hopefully when you were in school, they did not make you read going Glengarry Glen Ross the David Mamet play like the coffees is for closers. So glad you all don't know any of this anymore. Thank you. goodness. but you know, they made it into a movie with Alec Baldwin and it's just like an, you know, an angry white guy yelling at a bunch of even older white guys, like coffee is for closers, always be closing.
[00:40:54] Kel: So what I do is the antithesis of that. And instead of ABC, always be closing. I say, always be candid. So it's like you're always leading from a place that's as honest and open and curious as possible. So that's, that's super important. The other thing that's really great in terms of marketing with these phone calls is that we get to really beta test messaging and even beta test programming.
[00:41:20] Kel: Because it's just one on one interaction. It's really like a grassroots circumstance. We can say we're trying out this new program. I mean, who knows what do you think? And so we can really be the testing ground without having to go really public of this is what's going to go on our social media or this is what's on the website or this is the mass email or this is the letter campaign.
[00:41:40] Kel: We can play with that messaging over the phone in a different type of way. We can also, which I really love is I know we're all always, you know, so tied to the press release and what information can we share and what moment and what I love about this is that usually the fundraisers. Know what that next season is going to be, even if it isn't announced yet, so they can give some little hints that don't give anything away that they can say, you know, we've got a Tony award winning director connected with a Grammy nominated you know, musician for this next piece, or we're going to bring back someone who's worked with us in the past couple of years. Like, we can hint at things without giving any information really away, but that makes the person feel like they know a little bit more so we can get ahead in terms of our, ticket sales or, you know, most mostly in my case, the development work, like, in terms of how much money we're raising for the theater, we can get ahead of that even without having all of that press release information yet.
[00:42:40] Mary: Real quick, how long are the phone calls usually lasting?
[00:42:44] Kel: Oh my gosh, it could be anything.
[00:42:46] Mary: Because it feels like, I mean, just from what you were saying, I'm sure it might not be like all at once, but it just feels like a lot of information you're like sharing and you're having this great conversation. And that's just one side of it, right? That's just like your team's side of the conversation. Who knows what's being discussed, you know, on the other, on the other end of the line.
[00:43:03] Kel: I mean, it varies. I've seen, you know, major donations come in from a 60 second phone call of like, yes, I'd actually, I saw this in the program. I want to do this. How much is it? Or wait, you can get me in to see that show next week. Excellent. Like happy to go ahead and make a 1, 500 donation right now. So I've seen it be as quick as a minute, honestly, or, you know, it can be lengthier. It's, it really depends on what that person wants, how that person wants to engage.
[00:43:32] Kel: And again, that's where the active listening comes into play of like, how does this person want to engage with me? there is, you are really right, what you're experiencing in terms of feeling like it's really kind of, front there's a lot of front footed, nature to what this is. And also, like, a lot of, like, information right at the get go and I design it like that specifically so that there's no kind of apprehension from the person that we're calling of, like who is this calling me? Like, because I mean, think about it. We get all these robocalls for crying out loud. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, wait, you're an actual person. Oh, wait, you actually know about this organization. You don't sound like a scammer. Like, this sounds like I'm actually talking to somebody who's associated with the theater.
[00:44:14] Kel: So we have to do work. And that's why that first 15 seconds of the call is so, so important. Is because we've got to like break through all of somebody's preconceived notions about being being caught on the phone immediately. So, yeah, there's a lot of information. We don't expect that people will retain that as soon as we put that out there. It's like, we'll circle back and share that information as that phone call unfolds a bit more. So it could be anything. I mean, I do encourage if there's somebody who really wants to talk and it's time to move on to say, you know, it's been so great to talk to you, Cheryl, but I do want to, you know, make some more calls.
[00:44:49] Kel: I'm only making these calls for another half an hour. I really do have to go, but I am excited. You're seeing the show. So they are today. You know, do have some really graceful and empathetic ways to end calls. If somebody is just really excited to talk to them, but it runs the gamut. I don't time them. I have no idea, Mary. Like I think probably most calls are about four or five minutes. Probably.
[00:45:09] Brian: Is there one specific experience that you've had either working with colleagues, working directly with theater patrons in some way, that you'd like to share that was super memorable that touched you in any way that kind of like leads back to that original. Like why you do this?
[00:45:25] Kel: Yes. I love that question. I do. so what I was working, it was Manhattan theater club was that first organization where I was making these calls for, in my early twenties. And David Lindsay-Abaire had written this play called rabbit hole. And, he had written that,inspired by at Julliard, apparently Marsha Norman had said right about the thing that scares you the most. So he wrote about like this idea that there'd been death of a child. And so it was Cynthia Nixon and John Slattery played the parents. The child had already passed away at the top of show. And Tyne Daly played a great play to hit the grandmother and there was the scene where Tyne Daly and go at this. I promise this will tie back into an audience members experience, but Tyne Daly was folding the deceased young boys clothes and talking about her own son who had died of an overdose as an adult and talking about grief and how grief doesn't ever go away.
[00:46:18] Kel: It just changes and morphs. So I happen to, you know, 25 year old call, Mr. Smith who saw Rabbit Hole and said, you know, hi Mr. Smith. My name's Kel. I'm calling you from Manhattan Theater Club. I know you just came to see Rabbit Hole. and I wanted to see what you thought of the show and what brought you in the first place.
[00:46:37] Kel: Turns out that Mr. Smith's wife had passed away. Partner had passed away within the last six months, and they had always gone to the theater together, and this was the first time he had been back without her. And he had no idea what the play was about. And so it's, it started and it was really vulnerable and impactful on him.
[00:46:57] Kel: And then when Tyne Daly had that speech, he said, no one had, that's the first time he had heard grief articulated in that way, and it felt like exactly what he was going through. So he waited at the stage door after the show and he said, I know she didn't write it, but I just had to tell her how impactful that was on me.
[00:47:19] Kel: And, so he got to actually share that with Tyne Daly that that had really done something for him and his own healing process. So that's one of my favorite stories and it's one of my favorite stories to share because I just say, like, we don't ever know what impact, we're making in our art as artists, and we also just don't know what conversation we can be entering into as fundraisers.
[00:47:42] Kel: And just because it's a vulnerable, challenging moment, like, if we, as humans have the bandwidth to sit with somebody in that, like. There can really be something impactful that comes out of that. So I was just able to really be in that moment with Mr. Smith. And yeah, I don't even remember what he did. You guys like, sure.
[00:47:59] Kel: Maybe he became a donor. Maybe he became a subscriber. I don't remember what happened in that moment after that. But what I do know is, like, It's okay to have hard conversations, even with strangers, even over the phone. And that theater can bring us together in that way.
[00:48:16] Brian: It's a really beautiful story. And it's, it's really just brings us back to that whole why we theater like that connection, the collaboration, the community and getting to have those experiences is I'm sure so fulfilling for you over the years. Mary, what do you say? We move into our lightning round.
[00:48:37] Mary: Let's do it. Want to kick us off? Sure. Okay. What is one thing in the theater industry that confuses you
[00:48:44] Kel: Representation? Specifically in terms of business representation.
[00:48:49] Brian: What are three adjectives that would describe your ideal working environment?
[00:48:53] Kel: Curious, vulnerable, and supportive.
[00:48:57] Mary: Is there something in your process that you find unique to you?
[00:49:01] Kel: Oh, just this work I'm doing period. I mean, I have, I am branding myself as this outbound fundraising expert. I don't know anyone else who does anything like this. I think the whole, the whole brand I'm building is something that feels new and exciting. And I look forward to, I love when I connect with people, but I've yet to find anybody who's doing anything remotely like this,
[00:49:22] Brian: Do you have any books or resources that have. been helpful to you in your process or podcasts?
[00:49:27] Kel: Oh, yeah. I love Cal Newport's Deep Work I already, Deep Work. I already mentioned Keith Ferrazzi's Never Eat Alone. I love Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic. I love Priya Parker's The Art of Gathering. What else off the top of my head? Maybe we'll leave it, we'll leave it at that.
[00:49:45] Mary: Is one job in the theater industry that you would trade jobs with for one week?
[00:49:50] Kel: I want to, I would love to see what that means to be, like, an animal wrangler. I want to see what that is like.
[00:49:58] Mary: Never got that answer before. Yeah, we've never had that answer before. It's robbed me.
[00:50:02] Kel: I think because I've done enough of the other things slash been close enough in proximity and I never did work on it like a big show, you know, I'm thinking of like years ago they did the Royal 10. Oh, I don't remember if there was a show that had like big great Danes on stage and I was like, that looks amazing. And yeah, animal wrangler. I'm very curious what that would be like.
[00:50:26] Brian: What's a hobby that you have outside of the work you do?
[00:50:30] Kel: I'm going to be really geeky for a second. During the shut down my husband and I started to play game boards, like games, like very intricate game boards. So like we play this game called Viticulture and we are in a 16th century Tuscany building our own vineyards. We have one called Everdell, which is like, we're building our own animal cities.
[00:50:49] Kel: I'm telling you, I'm going to have to write a blog post at some point about how much I've learned in terms of like, entrepreneurial impulses and how much I'm honing my entrepreneurial impulses by playing these games and it just came out of us wanting to have something to do at night that wasn't staring at screens.
[00:51:05] Kel: And now we own like 20 of them and anyone who comes to our house, we feed them great meals. That is like another happy. I have. I really like to cook. My husband likes to cook. We'd like to try to recreate. Great meals we've had in all of our travels, but we'll feed you a really good meal. And then we'll try to convince you to play a board game with us afterwards.
[00:51:24] Mary: I love that. Oh, I love that. All right. Last question. What's the last great piece of theater that you've seen?
[00:51:32] Kel: Cambodian Rock Band written by my dear friend, Lauren Yee, saw it right before shutdown started and it was the first show that I saw that like actually started to potentially get some producorial juices flowing through me of like, I just want this show to be seen and I just want to support it happening. So yeah, Lauren Yees, Cambodian Rock Band at Signature Theater.
[00:51:56] Brian: Very nice. Well, it's been such a pleasure. How can our listeners find you in the work that you're doing?
[00:52:02] Kel: Sure. so you can find me, you can go right to my website, which is kelhaney. com. my handle on all of the socials is just my name, kelhaney. If you work with a not for profit and you want to have a 30 minute consultation, through, the consulting firm with whom I work. Donorly that's donorly. com. We could definitely set you up for a free consultation. If you're looking for any kind of, more individual coaching, I'm also happy through my website. You can contact me and I'm happy to also do a free consultation that way as well. Amazing.
[00:52:31] Mary: Amazing. Well, thank you. This was, this was amazing. I really, I really,
[00:52:34] Mary: It's
[00:52:34] Brian: everything I wanted it to be. Yeah. I mean, there were so many other ways we could have webbed out with what we, what we spoke about. but we'll have to get you back on another time for some more, for some more adventures.
[00:52:46] Brian: Thank you so much.
[00:52:47] Kel: Thank you guys.
[00:52:48] Mary: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of page to stage. To keep up with us. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook at page to stage podcast.
[00:52:56] Brian: And if you're enjoying these conversations. We would really appreciate it if you could take a couple minutes to rate and review us wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time.
[00:53:05] Mary: That's Brian.
[00:53:06] Brian: That's Mary.
[00:53:06] Brian: We'll see you later. Bye.