The Influential Nonprofit: Kel Haney: Humanity Comes First
Kel Haney has over 17 years of experience as a fundraiser, coach, and consultant.
She began her journey as a theater director, taking on fundraising calls as a means of supplementary income.
Over time, she transitioned into becoming a full-time Outbound Fundraising Expert.
Her expertise lies in assisting artists, creatives, administrators, and board members in discovering and harnessing their inherent talents. Her goal is to help individuals unlock their existing gifts, enabling them to become authentic and accomplished fundraisers.
Nobody wants to be seen as a “transaction”. Prioritize building meaningful relationships with people by identifying the person, having them feel valued for who they are and what they bring, and then from there see if there is an alignment.
Don’t decide for a person whether they could support you or not or how much they could support you. When asked, no matter what the other person looks like or seems like, give them the full amount. You will never know what their relationship is with money. Always be ready to shoot for the moon.
Set aside some time for calling people, block it out in your schedule. Then, go to a slightly different place and give yourself extra kindness. Third, pull-out scripts are not recommended, but it would be a good idea to have an outline of things you’ve got to say in order to prevent yourself from rambling.
The first 10 seconds of the call are crucial. Initiate the call with telling them who you are, your connection to the org, why you’re calling them and why now. Second, share updates that might be interesting to them, and third, talk about the fundraising campaign you have right now. Finally, close the conversation and figure out what’s the next point of contact with the person.
Whenever I and the fundraisers that I coach and I train, approach it from that place of ‘let's connect as humans’, the money always follows. I don’t even have to worry about it.
Don't get me wrong, I love numbers, I love goals, but never at the expense of putting humanity second.
Instead of ‘always be closing’, always be curious. If we're always curious, anything that we get back from that potential donor is a gift.
Podcast Episode Website: https://www.courageouscommunication.com/podcast/2023/6/20/the-influential-nonprofit-episode-102-kel-haney-humanity-comes-first
Listen to Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/the-influential-nonprofit/id1551595769
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Maryanne: Hey, and welcome to another episode of the influential nonprofit. I am Maryanne as you know, I work with nonprofit leaders to master the art of influence so they can get the most out of themselves and everyone else around them. And today I'm with my new friend because we're already friends, Kel Haney. Cause I already can tell we're aligned spirits and I'm very happy to talk with you.
[00:00:33] Maryanne: Kel is, an outbound fundraising expert coach and a senior consultant at Donorly. And your work boils down to taking the ick out of the ask which is definitely something we all want to get better at and shifting fundraising conversations from transactional encounters to relationship building opportunities.
[00:00:56] Maryanne: And isn't that a wonderful thing? So welcome Kel
[00:01:00] Kel: Thank you, Marian. I'm so happy to be here and chatting with you.
[00:01:02] Maryanne: Yeah, so before we get into all of that, as you know, I always ask the first question, which is, tell me something you're really proud of that you've accomplished or done in your life that you don't get to brag about much.
[00:01:15] Kel: Yes. So in the past three years, I've totally shifted my professional life and where our primary residence is. So I think one of my biggest accomplishments that I'm excited to talk about is that for the first 16 years of my professional life, I was crafting my life to support my career. And now instead, I'm crafting my career to support my life.
[00:01:42] Maryanne: Tell me more about that.
[00:01:44] Kel: So I was pounding the pavement as a theater director in New York city for 16 years, my husband is an actor, Michael Grew, and we would see each other on Sundays or we would meet each other at a show. And he knew that I was not going to show up until five minutes after it was supposed to start because I knew it wouldn't show up until seven minutes.
[00:02:03] Kel: And so I was always eating on the go, running on the go, having a million things to do, and then Sundays were our day to be together, tried to keep that on schedule and then would food prep for the week and whatnot. But then the pandemic hit and suddenly we didn't have in person work and I got to take a walk.
[00:02:19] Kel: We were living in Astoria, New York which is New York City. And I got to see spring unfold for the first time in New York City, day to day, how differently that looked. And we had dinner together every night. I thought, I love this. This is so different than the life I've been living. So we temporarily moved during the pandemic to a small island off the coast of Portland, Maine, where we got engaged, where we got married that we thought was our dream for 30 years down the road.
[00:02:44] Kel: When we retire, we were here for 4 months. We fell in love and we actually bought a farmhouse fixer upper at the end of last year. And so this is our primary residence now off the coast of Maine traveling to New York or anywhere else. I need to be when I need to be there. But, yeah. In our new virtual world I can be working really hard and then on the beach with our rescue dog or in the woods with our rescue dog and just having just a really full life in a new way.
[00:03:12] Maryanne: Wow. Instead of like, oh, let's wait for 30 years. Like, why don't we just do this now?
[00:03:17] Kel: Yeah, I felt like, yeah, I think a lot of people may have felt like that about the pandemic, but it just sped up what was important and what, what's the way that we wanted to live our lives.
[00:03:27] Maryanne: I feel like that happened for a lot of people. I mean, I had a lot of shifts. You know, that pattern interrupt got us to think, oh wait, maybe there's a different thing. Maybe this wasn't as important to me as I thought it was in the past. You know, I think there is an overall sort of raising a standard of, you know, this may not be that great, but I didn't know there was anything else. So is your husband an actor still acting?
[00:03:52] Kel: He is. He is.
[00:03:53] Maryanne: Okay. So is he in New York a lot or is he?
[00:03:56] Kel: Not so much at the moment. I think that could always change. He's actually been working a lot in Portland, Maine. So he got to work at Portland Stage. But it means that he can perform, be on stage, and then at the end of the night be back on our little island. It's pretty amazing. So he has representation in both New York and also in Boston. So it's interesting to watch how that's unfolding and all of their initial auditions now are online anyway. So,
[00:04:21] Maryanne: Right. So you went from stage theater director to fundraiser. So what, what was that leap like?
[00:04:30] Kel: Well, it was really gradual in a way that I didn't anticipate in a way that I didn't really know that I was building this new career. So in my early twenties, I needed some way to supplement my income as a theater director.
[00:04:43] Kel: And this was almost 20 years ago. And at that point, most of the theater directors who were really making careers for themselves were white cis men, who frankly had some kind of, you know, income outsourced income that wasn't theater directing so I it was, I needed to fundraise, but it was in some ways my dirty little secret it was something I didn't talk about which was ludicrous because I was fundraising for a theater that I loved Manhattan Theater Club that I thought I wanted to run someday I had been there as an intern.
[00:05:14] Kel: So I was just calling people and talking about the thing that I loved more than anything, which was theater and talking about shows that we both seen or shows that I've seen that I wanted them to see. And so, like, yes, it was about fundraising to make sure that this organization stayed in a healthy place.
[00:05:28] Kel: But in a larger sense, it really was about, I love this. Do you love this? Or how can I, connect with you in a way that you can love the thing that I love. So I raised upwards of seven million dollars in less than eight years myself over the phone in gifts predominantly two thousand dollars and under. So I was doing that while I was working on my directing career at the same time.
[00:05:50] Kel: And I ended up being the associate director of wit on Broadway with Cynthia Nixon and a couple of other higher profile shows that were at this theater. And so I was able to say, Oh, come see the show. I'm actually working on that. Or what did you think of that show? I actually worked on that. So it was a really organic way to build those relationships.
[00:06:09] Maryanne: Right. And then, so now you translate that to help other organizations build those relationships. So how, what did you learn from as a theater director? You know, that helps you now in fundraising.
[00:06:24] Kel: Yeah, so I feel like as a theater director, I was always hosting the event, is how I looked at it, is that I was the host of, you know, the first rehearsal in particular when everybody is getting to know each other.
[00:06:36] Kel: So I always thought about what can I do to make this a comfortable, safe, supportive environment. For everyone that's here in order for everybody to bring their best selves to the work because me just I was never going to treat actors as puppets and say, stand here, say it like this. It's better if that's coming from the individual person.
[00:06:58] Kel: And obviously we all come to everything we do with our own life experiences. So it was always better to be like, what can I do to create this environment that this person feels comfortable and safe. So you bring what they have. So that's really important to me in terms of how I coach and train and consult fundraisers of figuring out what are our individual superpowers, how to make that individual feel comfortable with the ask with all the other aspects of fundraising.
[00:07:23] Kel: And so I'm always just trying to focus on what makes us each unique. As individuals and really go from there and that carries over into the work with with potential donors with community members as well of being a really active listener and trying to figure out. Okay. What exactly is going to make this person feel like their part? And that they're respected and that they're safe here and figure out how we can best work together.
[00:07:48] Maryanne: Right. So the biggest thing I say this a lot is, you know, people buy to the level they feel seen and heard.
[00:07:54] Kel: Totally. Right.
[00:07:56] Maryanne: So my job is not to pitch convince how my job is to allow them to feel seen and heard. And you know, once I do that, they relax and when they, when they feel like I get them, they relax and then they're open to what I have to say and you're doing the same thing. You use different language, but it's the same thing, identifying the person, you know, having them feel valued for who they are and what they bring. And then from there, is there an alignment is right. Is there a place where we connect? So I love that. Because, you know, it's like the transactional encounters, relationship building opportunities. Who wants to be a transaction? Like nobody, nobody wants to be a transaction. Nobody wants to feel like an ATM.
[00:08:36] Maryanne: That is just, you know, and I love that our industry. Overall is understanding this and really starting, you know, and not starting, but moving in that direction of how can I build meaningful relationships with people, right? That's based on mutual, you know, support and not like, you know, and back off the cheese and
[00:08:57] Maryanne: sleaze.
[00:08:59] Maryanne: Totally.
[00:09:00] Kel: And the ick. Do you know what I mean? Like I say with the taking the ick out of the ask it's like it doesn't have to be icky in that way. Right. It just doesn't have to be that way. And I always say that I'm interested in the larger relationship that we're building. And so I'll even coach folks to have that conversation in that way with a potential donor. It's not about, getting that one time gift now and reaching a goal now and doing anything we can to get that money or that number and treating people like money or, you know, like you said, like an ATM, like some kind of goals in that way. And instead of saying, no, we're invested in you as a human being, as part of our community.
[00:09:34] Kel: And whenever I approach and the fundraisers that I coach and I train approach it from that place of truly like, let's connect as humans. The money always follows. Always follows. I don't even worry about it. I, you know, I'm always focused on, okay, well what's happening in these conversations, how can I coach somebody to be a better listener, to be more vulnerable, to listen more to the given circumstances that are going on within the organization, within the person with whom they're speaking, the community member.
[00:10:04] Kel: There's things we can do that are really about continuing to grow those relationships and make sure that that's really clear. That's what we foc I focus on as opposed to the bottom line. It always happens. I don't even worry. I love numbers, don't get me wrong. I love numbers. I love goals, but never at the expense of putting humanity second.
[00:10:25] Maryanne: Yes, I am pom poms and I'm going to wave them right now. You know, the humanity first and that's really taking the ick out of the ask, right? That's where it gets icky because it feels transactional. It feels weird. It doesn't feel aligned. It doesn't feel good. So if that's the way, then we have to step back and say, okay.
[00:10:46] Maryanne: Because the ick is on us, not them, right? Like, like creating a situation that does not feel good. And that's hard. Like, I always talk about how energy precedes outcomes. Energy speaks louder than words. So if it doesn't feel good, it's not, it's, you know, people aren't going to work it. But then yes, in humanity.
[00:11:04] Maryanne: You know, like humans first, which seems like an odd thing to say, and yet, you know, we have the, the leadership sometimes can say, well, can't you just go get something? Can't you just make that happen? It's like, no, because like, I respect people's humanity and their autonomy to make a choice that's right for them or not.
[00:11:25] Maryanne: So I love that so much. And also I love other things. Like I tell people a lot of times. Set the money aside for now. Money will come. Build a relationship because if you build it right, they're going to, you don't even have to ask, cause they're going to be like, how can I help you? What can I do?
[00:11:41] Kel: This is amazing. Yeah. And to be prepared that those moments might happen. So what I'm always saying is let's, let's be clear and let's be specific. When we're going into any conversation about, in my mind, the way I look at it as a shoot for the moon goal. So what are we going to do that feels like, potentially a good stretch for them as opposed to a bad stretch. And so it might be, you know, and I just tell everyone that I'm coaching and that I'm consulting with, let's just be clear of what those numbers are. This might not be the moment in the conversation for us to bring that up with the potential donor, but if the potential bring donor brings it up and says, okay, I want to help, like we're connecting or get to the point or wherever they are.
[00:12:23] Kel: So my shoot for the moon, we're trying to raise X amount of money by Y time, wanted to see if you could do Z amount. So that we're just ready with that. And so if they open up that door before. We think it's time which happens all the time, right? Because
[00:12:38] Maryanne: if you're I say if you're doing it, right They're gonna be asking you like yes, and I practice this too. So I invite people in the conversations with me and I had a call yesterday the guys like what is in this for you? And I said well I mean, this is how I I meet people decide if they may be right for my program and yeah, and he said, well, do you tell me about your program or, or like, am I right for this? And most of the time people, I don't really ask people, do you want to know what I do? People like, you know, I really, I'm really interested in what you do.
[00:13:07] Maryanne: And like, I almost all the time, they're asking me and so, and then that's what I teach people do. They'll be asking you, how can I help? What, what's going on? Now we could say, well, what, what does help look like? What are you thinking? Like, there's a, you know, like having that goal in the mind, in your mind, tapping into what, what does that look like to you?
[00:13:25] Maryanne: You know, and I love how you sort of have this like shoot, shoot for the moon idea. Well, here it is. Because if you're not a little bit scared just like, just a little bit of courage, just like, here's what we'd love to have happen. Yeah.
[00:13:40] Kel: I always say we have to live in like the good stretch, not the bad stretch, but like a good stretch place. So for, you know, folks who do yoga, I love yoga. And so I'm always thinking about when am I, when am I practicing in a way that I'm just curious about how this feels in my body. Obviously, if it feels bad, as in I might injure myself, stop doing that. If it just feels like, hmm, this feels a little sticky, this feels a little different than it did yesterday, let me breathe into that and explore it and figure out why.
[00:14:11] Kel: But like you said, we need to always figure out what's our shoot for the moon and then put it out there and then one never knows so and I always say I always say like the one moment in these conversations to not be super personal is in the ask is in specifically the numerical amount I recommend to never comment on cost.
[00:14:32] Kel: And my whole idea is I've got this blue jeans theory is how I think about it is that there's somebody out there who spends 30, 000 who makes 30, 000 a year, who would spend 300 on a pair of jeans. And then there's somebody out there who makes 300, 000. Who would never spend more than 30 on a pair of jeans.
[00:14:51] Kel: So even if we have some kind of research on the particular individual, we still don't know what their relationship is to money. We're never going to know exactly what their relationship is to money. So I never say, can you just do 50? That might mean that that person is in a really cutting back on some essential budget item for the month. I don't know. You know, I'm not going to say just 25 or 50. I'm also not going to say I'm going to shoot for the moon and like, I know it's a lot, but could you do 20, 000 that might not feel like a lot to that person. So I always just say, I'm going to shoot for the moon. And here's the X amount.
[00:15:31] Kel: And see what you think. And keep quiet.
[00:15:33] Maryanne: Because, so I'm working on this workshop, giving this workshop about powerful communication. Can you just identify two ways that we sabotage our communication? And so it was just like using that word, just, just 50 hours. Or the other thing you said was it might this might be a lot, right? Like you're giving like qualifiers or conditions. Instead of just saying, we're like, you know, we're, this is our big, you know, hairy, audacious number. What do you think of that? Yeah. And just let them respond. Right. Instead of, cause it feels like, Oh, I just, could you just give me this little bit or this may seem crazy.
[00:16:13] Maryanne: You know? And so I love how you're saying like depersonalizing from the number, cause it can mean anything to anyone. And just holding your value and seeing what happens. And here's the other thing, pal. And I guess you probably coach people on this is do not speak. Stop.
[00:16:31] Kel: Oh, yes. So I call that and this is again coming from my theater directing background, but I call that hold for the silence. So in theater, something you say in tech a lot is hold, and that means basically stop where you are, because we're going to reset or change something. So I, and I coach most of the people that I coach are artists in some way.
[00:16:51] Kel: So some of that jargon ends up being part of this, but so I say hold for the silence. And so when I'm training someone and I say. So yeah, Maryanne it would be great if we could get you involved. I'm going to shoot for the moon and see if you could do X amount towards our campaign. We're trying to raise Y by Z date. What's your initial thought on that?
[00:17:14] Kel: And then I'll just wait. And it's one of the most fun things. I don't know if you feel like that, but I think waiting on that hold for the silence moment is, it just feels fun. And sometimes people say, oh, did you have more? Are you, if it's over the phone, are you still there? Or if it's over zoom, like, did you glitch?
[00:17:30] Kel: And I'm like, no, I just, I've been speaking a lot. I wanted to give you a little space to think about what I'm saying. And to just truly lead with curiosity. I always say, instead of always be closing, always be curious. So if we're always curious, anything that we get back from that potential donor is a gift. Anything they say is a gift.
[00:17:53] Maryanne: I love that. Always be curious. And, yes, always be curious and, and open, right? And, so what I would say is it's fun for you, but it can be panic inducing for people who and so my trick, when I first start, I'd be like, and I would do this, I'd be like, so what costs this much?
[00:18:12] Kel: Yes, yes. Take a sip. I would say like I would out lunch and take a bite of your salad body would
[00:18:18] Maryanne: be like, I was like, you know, my whole body would be like, do it for less. Do it for less. Do it for us. Oh, because you're, you feel like you're going to break rapport. You feel like they're not going to like you. They're going to reject you and you're, and it's a physical feeling and you can just hold in that discomfort and do whatever you'd bite your tongue. Yeah, like look down at your paper. I would take a drink. So I would not say, and like, literally it was to stop my mouth. From speaking anymore. And then once you get that, like, once you feel that, right. Cause you're practiced at this. Once you get practice at it, you're just really casual about it. But your body, I feel like your brain, your body's like, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:18:55] Kel: And I'll add to that list. I love your list of things you could do in that moment.
[00:18:58] Kel: And one other thing I would add is just to breathe. Like to give yourself that moment, just like take a deep breath and be like, yeah, it's uncomfortable. That's okay. So, you know, again, we're not being chased by a lion. No one is threatening our lives. Hopefully we're not engaging with anyone that we're feeling will be verbally or emotionally abusive to us in any way, or we would not be engaging with them as potential collaborators as potential donors, but yeah, just take a breath. Yeah, it's also okay to admit, that those moments are hard. I also coach people to say it's all right to say I've never done this before, or this is the part of the conversation that's gets difficult for me, or this is a moment like today I'm, having a rougher day or I drank too much coffee or I didn't drink enough coffee or whatever that is like to just truly let other people into our given circumstances because the more vulnerable and the more human we are with people. The more vulnerable and human they are with us, the more they open up.
[00:20:03] Maryanne: Yes. They, people want authenticity. They want transparency. They want, I say it all the time. The most vulnerable person in the room is the most powerful person, right? Because if you're sharing your truth, you, then you give other people permission.
[00:20:18] Maryanne: To share it like yeah, this is this is the awkward part for me like, okay until it's not then you don't have to say it because you don't want to lie, you know, that's like totally And because people will sniff that right out. My, my, my middle son, I, he is flipping genius. Like he, he totally, you cannot. Lie, like he just sniffs it out. He's so perceptive. I love that. And so he teaches me, like, you can't even just, I'm trying to sell it to him. He's, he just sees right through it. Just assume everybody's good like that. And they're going to see right through it. And even if they don't consciously, there's something in their subconscious that's pulling back a little bit. They don't know why. Yeah. You know, like this doesn't like, and, and they, they can't figure out like a logical reason why it's just not. Feeling good.
[00:21:03] Kel: Yeah, we know immediate and we're sold all the time. I don't remember exactly what the facts are But truly thousands of times in the day. We're being sold. We're being marketed to yeah and everything that we do so I'm always saying, you know perfectionism is never the goal and I think culturally we're moving away from that which is great period. But if we're too salesy if we're too slick if we're too on top of our game people disengage and they like, your middle son like susses out their BS meter is going off in a big way.
[00:21:33] Kel: And so to say, that's okay, you being a whomever you are. And that's why I say that's why I also can really lean into my directing background as a theater director is let's just take who you are and run with it. It's okay. Some of us are genuinely more introverted or extroverted or more talkative, less talkative, more comfortable, less comfortable in these circumstances, but we all have something to offer, especially with arts organizations or I guess any organization, but I'm thinking about particularly artists who really love what they do, and they're the person that should be speaking about this, but they're like, I don't want to talk about it. And it's like, well, no, we need to hear that from you. Like no one else brings what each of us brings to the thing that we love.
[00:22:16] Maryanne: Wow. Okay. So while we're talking about vulnerability, you talk about fundraising and specifically over the phone, because that's where you did most of your work. I am a little phone phobic. Now I'm going to be very careful in my language. Cause again, this is a part of it. So if I, and just for everyone out there, like if I say I am phone phobic, what that does is that, that identifies me as that and so and it only allows that truth to come through. If I say I'm not good with people, or I'm not good with math, or I'm not good with money then I'm, then I'm embracing that identity. So a way to shift it because that way if I shift my words, I can allow for new things to emerge. There's a part of me, or sometimes I don't like talking on the phone because other times I'm very fine.
[00:23:06] Maryanne: Also for me, I think it's kind of like a rhythm. Like once I get into it now, I'm just into it, but there's, there is hesitation. I could do zoom all day. I had a call the other day. This was like, I'm so tired of zoom. I just want to talk on the phone. I'm like, okay. And it was fine, you know, and I can't like, I'm a grownup.
[00:23:21] Maryanne: I can do things, but there's a part of me. So I don't want to say, and for anyone else who's listening, just rephrase that. There's a part of me, or sometimes I feel like I'm phone phobic. See what a difference that makes is I am this, like that's my identity. Sometimes I feel like, or sometimes I'm not good with money because there's other times because there's facts and feelings.
[00:23:43] Maryanne: So if I look at the feelings, I can say, I'm only looking for the facts that support that belief. I'm discounting all the other times when I, did yes, I'm fine, but I don't I don't acknowledge that because it's not supporting the belief. So sometimes I'm phonephobic back to you. So help me understand this and and and maybe some strategies to
[00:24:06] Kel: Absolutely. So the 1st question I have, Marianne, is, is can you pinpoint when it feels good to be on the phone versus when it doesn't feel good to be on the phone? Particular examples of, oh, that's a moment that I felt like I was in flow. I felt like I was in myself in that, maybe we should keep it to like business conversations, but like when that felt good versus a time that didn't feel good.
[00:24:26] Maryanne: I'm like, you know, I have my list of prospects. We all have a list of prospects. I'm supposed to like call people and I feel like an intrusion. So not, it's not just like once I'm on the phone. So I have to tell you this story. This is, this is a wonderful person. Her name is Becky Byrd. She runs Annie's Hopes.
[00:24:43] Maryanne: I did a board training with her, but many, this was a while ago. And I was listening to this podcast was like, you call one person a day and you like leave a message. I'm like, and I was literally stuck in traffic, like stuck in traffic. I'm like, well, I'll just open my phone and find somebody. And like, I called her and she answered.
[00:25:02] Maryanne: I was like you weren't supposed to pick up the phone. Because in, I said, I was just going to leave this message. I'm trying this new thing. And then we laughed and we had a lovely, like 10 minute call and it was wonderful. And also I have learned from working with her, like that she defaults to the phone.
[00:25:16] Maryanne: Like, and so that's one thing I pay attention to. And so I would call her because I knew I could see that's what she liked. Like if I would send her an email. She'd be like, okay, tell me about it. Right. So that's, that was good. So I'm good with that, right?
[00:25:31] Kel: You are actively listening in that way of like, how is the best mode of communication for someone? But when, when I'm clocking first and foremost, calling Becky, right, is, or calling whomever is, and one thing we do get about the phone is we can be a little bit more in our own cocoon. So I recommend that people are uncomfortable with making calls, but that's part of their work. That's part of they've got their portfolio thinking specifically of fundraisers, not for profit leaders.
[00:25:58] Kel: I would recommend that that's actually some time that's set set out on your schedule to be like, okay, here's the half hour. Here's the hour top of my day. End of my day when I'm going to do that. And I actually say, feel free to sit in a slightly different place as opposed to like, I see your chair, you've got a comfy chair behind you, maybe as opposed to sitting at your desk where you sit, where, you've got the view for your video calls, sit someplace else, get yourself a cup of coffee or tea or whatever beverage you like, like do something like slightly ritualistic for yourself before you get started of like treating yourself of like, I'm going to be extra kind to myself in this moment when I'm going to do something that's harder for me.
[00:26:37] Kel: So that's that would start there just like, identifying that this is harder and to your point. Yes, we need to be ready for the voicemail and I don't recommend pull out scripts to have phone solicitation calls. That being said, I do think for some people having either an outline of things to say over a voicemail or actually a full script on a voicemail. If you can practice and do it in a way that sounds realistic and not extemporaneous. Again, I work with a lot of artists, so they're great at that but being ready because people do listen to voicemails. I can't believe in 2023 how important voicemails are and how much people respect that.
[00:27:17] Kel: And I'm like, wow, this person took that time to take a minute and leave this voicemail. I mean, it's just it's funny that voice memos have become such a big thing. It's just a different version of a voicemail. So I hear you on that. So what happened in the call? So then you weren't expecting Becky to pick up. You were in traffic.
[00:27:34] Maryanne: She picked up. And this was lovely. This was a long time ago. And I and we just had like a 10 minute conversation, you know, it's like, Oh, it's so great to hear from you. My, my friend, Jeff said to me once who wouldn't want to hear from you. I'm like, yes, I guess. Yeah. And also There is this, you know, like hesitation. So now Kel, everyone's like, oh, great, now everyone's gonna be hearing from me. And in fact, even on my Calendly, I ask for phone numbers, and I do that, you know, like if, like to book a time like for in case of an emergency. But my, my coach was like, well, now you have, you can text people, like you can just say, Hey, thinking about you or whatever. And also it is the phone call. I think is that is the mountain that I feel. And so the interesting thing is when I first started my business, that's all I did because that's all I had. Right. And so then I have other, Oh, and like, then I really, I built all these other systems and the podcasts and all this stuff.
[00:28:32] Maryanne: And then like, Oh, wait, I can, I can go back and incorporate this very powerful strategy. Because, again, I want to be in alignment with the people, right? And you want to be like, I'm going to be making those calls because I'm teaching people how to make those calls. Yes. Good leaders go first. So I can bust through my fear, then you can bust through your fear. So maybe that, maybe.
[00:28:53] Kel: And we can then use our stories to share with them and say, I was there and now I'm here and here's the work I did to get there. Here's, here's, so I think that's great.
[00:29:00] Maryanne: Here's what I did to get there. So now I'm thinking like, okay, maybe that's the thing for me is like, oh, I want, I, I can do this, then I can teach other people. Because, you know, like, good leaders go first. Like, I, that's one of the biggest things is like, I, I don't, I can't ask you to up level your, your commitment and me just stay here and stay safe. So I go first, right? Yeah. I'm the one who gets uncomfortable. And then, right? So I can, I can bring you along. This is wonderful. So, you have something. Go ahead. Do you want to share?
[00:29:26] Kel: Oh, I think we're going in the same place. You go for it. Okay.
[00:29:29] Maryanne: I wanted to share, because you have these, like, your four tentpoles for making an ask. Yeah, yeah. What is that?
[00:29:34] Kel: Okay, yeah. So I'll give you the simplest version. We could talk about that for a while. But so the first is, the first tentpole is what I call the opening. And so that's the first 15 seconds of the call. I think it's very crucial. Like you said, I don't know. Malcolm Gladwell's blink or whatnot talks about that. We make split second decisions, impressions.
[00:29:54] Kel: So the 1st 10, 15 seconds on my color are crucial and I'll come back to that in a second. So 1st 1st tentpole is the opening, which is the 1st 15 seconds. The 2nd tentpole is the main event. And that's where you're going to share whatever kind of I'm speaking specifically about not for profits in this moment.
[00:30:12] Kel: You're going to share updates that you think might be interesting to that particular person about the organization. What's going on with the organization right now? How could they potentially get involved? Events they might want to attend things they can look at newsletters, whatnot. And then conveniently the 3rd, but the last item that you're going to share is about the fundraising campaign.
[00:30:35] Kel: You're on right now. So you're not asking yet. You're just saying, and here's another thing. So, you know, for instance, with a theater organization, We've got this play running right now that has a new, that got a New York times critics pick. Here's what's coming in next season. And also we have our fiscal year ends June 30th.
[00:30:53] Kel: We're trying to raise X amount by then. And here's how we're doing it. And here's what that money's being raised for. So that's tentpole number two tentpole number three is the actual ask. And that's when, you actually come out and this is just saying this is I'm being really specific if this is particularly a phone call for an ask.
[00:31:11] Kel: Obviously this same kind of methodology works over five months. It can be five minutes, five months. It's the same thing. And then the final is the closing. And so that's figuring out what the next point of contact is with this person, whatever they do. But I can break it down a little bit further. I think to your point.
[00:31:28] Kel: I should at least talk about temple number one. 'cause it's what you're saying about that moment of that first getting on, getting on the call feels, that feels like the most frustrating. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm bothering this person. I'm bothering Becky. Oh my gosh. She picked up like, your heart suddenly drops or goes in your throat or however that ends.
[00:31:44] Kel: Your heart tightens whatever happens in your body, right? So what I think is very important is to get out who you are, your connection to the org. And why you're calling them and why you're calling them right now immediately. So for instance, if you saw somebody in person, if you knocked on their door, if you were on a zoom call, if you saw them at a cocktail party, you would have some other cues about what's going on with this person than you have at the top of a phone call.
[00:32:14] Kel: Instead of somebody picking up the call and me saying, Hi, am I speaking with Marianne? You say, yes, you called me. I didn't call you. And I say, hi, Marianne. My name's Kel. I'm calling from X organization. How are you doing today? And it's like, okay, I know you're calling for a reason, not just how are you today, and then I'm fine, how are you?
[00:32:35] Kel: And so there's like this stilted nature, as opposed to if I called you and said, Hi Marianne, believe it or not, my name's Kel, I'm actually calling you from so and so theater. And I'm touching base because I think you saw this show with us a couple months back. We have a show going on right now that's a New York Times Critics Pick.
[00:32:53] Kel: I'd love for you to come see that. But first and foremost, I love that you came to see that show last month. Just wanted to see what you thought of it, what brought you into our theater in the first place, and, you know, if you know us at all. So I'm going to like stack a few questions at the top of that.
[00:33:08] Kel: So I gave that person a lot at the top and you'd think that feels pushy, but that's actually disarms them and makes them more comfortable. Cause they're like, okay, I know exactly what's going on here. This is a not for profit who's calling me. I already have a connection and I think it's good to call or, you know, only call people that your org already has a connection with, or that that potential donor has an affiliation with a similar organization.
[00:33:33] Kel: You know, cold, actual cold calling. And that's not, it's not like the salesy thing. I don't even work with people who are career salespeople. So it really is about that first 15 seconds and to be vulnerable. So with Becky, you could have, you know, when she picked up the phone, be like, Oh my gosh Becky, it's Marianne. I have to admit I'm a little tongue tied. I didn't expect you to actually pick up.
[00:33:54] Maryanne: Yeah, we're supposed to pick up the phone.
[00:33:56] Kel: But it's like, given circumstances, like, I wasn't expecting that. But I'm calling you to follow up. We talked about X program. Yeah. And I just want to see, number one, how you're doing.
[00:34:05] Kel: And obviously, number two, see if you've looked at that program, if you've thought about it anymore. But like, what's, how are you? And obviously, you know a little bit about that person, I'd say. You know, how are your kids? You know, I know now that you have at least one middle son, which makes me think that there's probably at least three, if you said middle.
[00:34:21] Kel: So, you know, I mean, we're always picking up those cues of what we're learning about people, even if we don't know. So yeah, I mean, I, I genuinely want to check in on everyone as human beings before we get into the business period. Like, and if that's genuine. Then it's really effective.
[00:34:36] Maryanne: Right. That is so good. And sometimes I do it just like this. We call this intuitive sales. Like I think of somebody and I'll just call them. You know, I thought instead of like on the list. Oh, I wonder how she's doing.
[00:34:48] Kel: Yeah, you popped into my mind today. it's that simple. It's you popped into my mind or I saw I always love having a gift of some sort of I know you really like to cook lobster and I just I found this lobster.
[00:35:00] Kel: I saw this lobster recipe. It made me think of you or, I know you said you like this TV show. I just saw this or Hey, I know you really like flowers and you know, I don't know just whatever the thing is that's like popping into your brain in the moment.
[00:35:13] Maryanne: Totally do that. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm wondering why, where, where did this fear lead?
[00:35:20] Kel: It made me feel so much better. I can hear it though, I can hear it's coming from feeling like you're bothering someone. Feeling like, and that like fear of rejection and that moment of like, oh gosh, I'm too much or I'm like being inappropriate or whatnot and just trust people will tell you and I always say like they'll tell you if now is not a good time they'll tell you if they don't like phone calls like they will tell you one thing that you know I always believe it or not encourage especially with these phone call fundraising fundraising phone calls is to never say do you have any questions for me?
[00:35:56] Kel: Because if they have questions, they will just ask them, or is there anything else I can say today that would blah, blah, blah, that's so salesy, like, I wouldn't recommend you ever do anything like that, but they will tell you, they will tell you what their given circumstances are, they will tell you if this isn't working out for them, and then I love that idea of teasing out a no, like figuring out what is that no, and in a way that's respectful, in a way that respects their no, but it's like, okay, no can mean a lot of things.
[00:36:23] Kel: Is it no as in my dog like is barking in the background or like, you know my baby just woke up from a nap or is no as in like I just had this unexpected tax bill or no as in I just found out i'm getting a divorce or no as in somebody just passed away I mean all of these things or no as in I'm upset with your organization because you didn't acknowledge my last gift.
[00:36:45] Kel: I mean, there's truly countless reasons that there's a no, and there's a way to like, not just close it. And again, it's transactional. I feel like if someone says no, and we're like, okay, thank you. Bye. It's a figure out where you go. And that's why the fourth tent pole is always about what's the next point of contact.
[00:37:00] Kel: So even if it's. Gosh, I'm so sorry you haven't been liking the shows we've been producing lately. I'll tell you what, I will personally touch base, then I know a little bit more. I took some notes about what you do and don't like. Next time I see something at our theater that I think you'll like. I'll call you personally and just tell you about it and up to you whether or not you want to come back or if you want to donate but it's always about finding out like what's the next or if they say yes and they're doing this big gift amazing well thank you so here's how you're going to get your tax letter and we've got this event coming up in a month I would really love for you to be there we'll send something out in the mail so it's always about what's the next point of contact no matter what happens on the call
[00:37:38] Maryanne: Right, right. I love that because that's what I coach people to, you know, set the next meeting if there's a next set the next meeting in the meeting.
[00:37:47] Kel: Yes. 100 percent
[00:37:48] Maryanne: And it saves all of our time, right? And don't take the, let me, can you send something over and I'll take a look and say, absolutely. And why don't we, I did it today. Why don't we talk next week to see how you're see where you're at in your decision making process? Yeah. What you get is all these planes that are just circling and you can't feel like you can't land them, you're giving your power away, you know, so by, you know, mutually deciding what does the next step look like?
[00:38:13] Maryanne: And that could be, Hey, I'll call you next year or I'll call you when the, you know, when I know what shows are coming or whatever it is and then you, then you've got that and then that's, that's agreed to, and then you can move, you know, cause it is assessing out like, well, my thing is like, my job is to really get to know as fast as possible.
[00:38:29] Maryanne: If it's not a fit, that's great. And if it is, let's keep talking, you know because when you don't treat people transactionally, then they will respect you and remember you. And even if it wasn't the right fit, right, or maybe it's not this year's season, they're still going to respect you and think well of you and even refer you. And that's that that can only benefit you.
[00:38:53] Kel: Yeah, I agree. And I always say that on these calls, no matter what happens on the call, I want the community member when they hang up the phone that they feel like they know a little bit more about the org than they did when it started and that they've got an even more positive impression of the org than when the phone call started. That is more important.
[00:39:14] Maryanne: Obviously we could go on for a while, but this is amazing and I don't know about anyone listening to this podcast, but I feel better.
[00:39:23] Kel: Oh, good. I'm glad. I'm excited. Keep me posted. I want to hear.
[00:39:27] Maryanne: I know you have honestly inspired me and now people are like, oh, I can't wait to get a phone call from you. So and before we close, I always close with the same question. Yes. So when I go to Portland, Maine, or you're in St. Louis, or we wind up meeting in New York what is the what is your go to karaoke song? What are we going to sing?
[00:39:46] Kel: Yeah, we're going to sing What's Up by the Four Non Blondes.
[00:39:49] Maryanne: Four Non Blondes. All right. That's a good belter. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That's a good one. You know, everyone sings along to that. So that makes it really fun. That's a great song. Okay. Thank you, Kel, for being here. And I say this, I love doing this podcast because I get to meet amazing people.
[00:40:08] Maryanne: I love what you're doing for nonprofits. And thank you so much. We have some links in the show notes. What's the best way for people to reach out to you?
[00:40:17] Kel: Yeah, I would say the best way, if you just want to have a conversation with me towards one on one coaching or consulting, it's reaching out to me via LinkedIn. That's my new happy place. I'm also really doing a lot of thought leadership there. So come find me on LinkedIn. If you work with a not for profit and you're interested in learning more about what we do at Donorly, we focus on small to mid sized not for profits do all sorts of kind of work from interim staffing all the way to research. So I really love the team I work with at Donorly. So if it's a B2B situation reach out to me via Donorly, Donorly. com. Or if you just want a person to person one on one coaching slash just be new, not for profit fundraising friends, marketing friends, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love them.
[00:41:03] Kel: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Kel: All right. That is that is it for this episode of the influential nonprofit. Again, thanks for Kel Haney for being here and sharing so much wonderful wisdom. And if you haven't yet, if you go to nonprofit leadership. com, you can download your, upload your influence starter kit. I have a guide there and also a kind of a template for you to be able to have conversations with people that feel good.
[00:41:28] Kel: And that's rooted in listening. It's like, I always say our pain comes from the gap between who people are and who we want them to be. So it allows you to see people for who they are and connect with them that way. And only good things can come from that. So thanks again, Kel. And we'll see you next time on the influential nonprofit.